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college fundamentalism vs. college realism

I have argued that we have too much college. I have also argued that it may not be wise for everyone to go to college considering the astronomical cost. These views have attraced much criticism on this blog.

So why do I stick to these views? As a blogger, I do enjoy the debate, but there’s a more important reason for supporting an unpopular view: I am a “college realist.” I do not take a religious stance toward education. Formal schooling is a tool to an end. If the tool fails to do its job, I can live without it.

What’s the alternative? I think there are three positions one can take toward education:

  • College fundamentalism: College is always good for everyone. Everyone should have it no matter the cost or the measured effect. We should massively subsidize college for anyone who asks for it.
  • College realism: College is good for some people, but maybe not for everyone. The benefits of college should be compared to the costs and liabilities.
  • College skepticism: College is mainly a waste of time. It is not needed and we should dismantle higher education.

There are educational skeptics. Home schooling might be seen as K-12 skepticism. The writer Ivan Illich argued that we needed to “deschool” society. But there aren’t too many hard core skeptics. Rather, the big debate is between college fundamentalists and college realists.

There are many college fundamentalists. For example, policy makers in America often promote more student loans to increase enrollments. Education researchers spend more time, relatively speaking, on access (getting people into college) than impact (see how it matters). The knee jerk reaction to proposal to limit or shrink college education is a symptom.

I’m a realist because there’s too much evidence against a fundamentalist position. We know that many students fail out of college and those that remain fail to learn much. And it isn’t because of finances. Many students lack the ability or maturity to complete college.  Furthermore, there’s evidence that college is overpriced relative to future earnings. This all suggests to me that college education should be focused, not given to all who ask.

I think the right policy stance for a college realist is “targeted access.” Rather than try to get every kid into college regardless of academic skills, we should focus on people who have the ability and desire to succeed. The wealthy will take of themselves. We – the higher education community – should instead work on identifying promising young people from less wealthy families and building financial resources, like endowments and grants, that will make college affordable for these people. Our efforts should be on identification of merit, targetting people who need help, and price control, not merit-blind loans and other policies that bloat and distort higher education.

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Written by fabiorojas

November 28, 2011 at 12:08 am

Posted in academia, education, fabio

24 Responses

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  1. ahhh, if only the libertarians made this type of argument – instead of “well, college is just too hard for the darkies, you see!”

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    andy

    November 28, 2011 at 12:51 am

  2. btw, the above comment is meant to be one of praise (right after pressing “submit” i realized that the comment was a bit ambiguous in tone)

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    andy

    November 28, 2011 at 12:52 am

  3. In the interest of prolonging this discussion, I would love to read a response to Omar’s comment (#30) on the “Useless College Majors” post.

    It seems that his well developed points–especially #3, about the need for research before wild speculation; and 3b, that “within levels of degree (let’s say high school) those who extend their education do better [economically over the course of their lives] than those who don’t, even if they don’t attain the next level” (i.e. graduation). It is possible that “some” years of college, even without attaining a degree, and even with student loan debt, may still pay off more across one’s lifetime than no years of college. Before researching the issue, is it smart or responsible to pick a side?

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    coqui21

    November 28, 2011 at 3:02 am

  4. 1) “College is always good for everyone.” Y=a+BX+e. Where Y is a goodie, X is college and e is a *random* fluctuation. Nobody believes this, so this is not an actual position. What people do believe is that on average college is better than no college (B>0).
    2) “Everyone should have it no matter the cost or the measured effect.” Not sure what this means. What a rational expectations model proposes is that if the average cost is lower than the average benefit then you should go for it. This is the case for college.
    3) “We should massively subsidize college for anyone who asks for it.” A bizarre, non-sequitur policy position (not sure what massive means here). The college is good conclusion can be supported even by the most staunch anti-state macro-economist.
    4) “College is good for some people, but maybe not for everyone.” Y=a+BX+e. Quite possibly the most uninformative truism ever uttered. The issue is whether if we partition the population into two groups, those who get college and those who don’t, then the average life chances of the first group are better than those in the second group. (E(Y)|X=1)>(E(Y)|X=0) for any Y you can think of. That’s the case for college.
    5) “The benefits of college should be compared to the costs and liabilities.” Yes, see 2 and 4 above.

    Another thing that I find weird about this completely decontextualized discussion is the lack of reference to the basic macro-economic reality. The point is that with the graduation rate flat since the 1970s, and the inexorable structural changes in the economy (e.g. sector growh in occupations in which there are going to be jobs) what we are facing is a demand side pressure for more college graduates that is not being met on the supply side. That’s why any macro-economist would find it bizarre to say that there is “too much” college when the reality is clearly the opposite.

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    Omar

    November 28, 2011 at 3:51 am

  5. If the purpose of a college or university education is to deliver skills useful for employment in the future; and if our only guide is the past; then, we must ask what value is delivered by classes in sociology and economics.

    Sales and marketing, and bookkeeping and accounting were and are important and valuable services; but neither sociologists nor economists were ever in demand.

    Despite the polling and public relations work of Lazarsfeld and Merton, sociology never escaped from Marxist criticism of our market society. And sociology ends there with no practical solutions to any perceived social problem, except that we should be nice to each other. Do Microsoft and Apple employ hundreds or even dozens of economists from Chicago or Harvard, while hometown pizza and florist shops take on part-time economists with community college certificates?

    On the other hand, we know from measurable results that police officers with college degrees both make more traffic stops, and yet have fewer negative interactions with the public: they work harder and better. But college classes in criminology do not teach traffic stops or public relations. Something else is engaged.

    Mark Van Doren’s Liberal Education taught that the full range of intellectual pursuits combined is necessary to the development of a fully competent individual. The trivium and quadrivium of the medieval university are today’s classes in algebra, statistics, calculus, physics, biology, communications, art history, literature, film, foreign languages, computer literacy, … the entire university catalog. The bottom line is that the most economically valuable education is the one that is pursued for its own sake.

    Alternately, it may be true that only hubris allows anyone to predict today what skills will be demanded tomorrow. Rather than perceiving education as something we pass through as we acquire the sum total of all previous knowledge – a task never really possible even to a medieval apprentice – we recognize the importance of lifelong university engagement. We should look forward to a future where several degrees at every level are the hallmark of a productive intellect…. while keeping in mind that neither Bill Gates nor Steve Jobs would have met that benchmark …

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    Michael Marotta

    November 28, 2011 at 11:09 am

  6. I agree that college is not for everyone. However, I do not believe that we as a society have developed appropriate tools and methods for determining who has the ability and motivation to succeed. Many of my students were not successful or motivated students in high school–but after time at community college, in the military, in the workforce, or raising small children, they have developed the motivation. And with time in our small classes, they learn the skills to be successful.

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    Mikaila

    November 28, 2011 at 2:55 pm

  7. “Sales and marketing, and bookkeeping and accounting were and are important and valuable services; but neither sociologists nor economists were ever in demand.”

    Well, except those pesky University of Chicago sociologists/social anthropologists in the 1930s and 1940s who by many accounts founded modern market research (and, arguably, gave us the soap opera).

    For a recent paper on the market research – sociology ties from the perspective of market researchers, see, e.g., Henry and Caldwell, 2011. “Spinning the Proverbial Wheel? Social Class and Marketing.” Market Theory 11(3).

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    krippendorf

    November 28, 2011 at 3:54 pm

  8. I’m surprised no one has yet mentioned the Torche article in the recent AJS, “Is a College Degree Still the Great Equalizer? Intergenerational Mobility across Levels of Schooling in the United States.” The answer to the question is yes, college degrees still help to even the playing field and help people achieve upward class mobility. However, a person’s class origin does seem to help solidify advantages among those who get advanced college degrees. Here is a quote directly from the paper:

    Based on these findings, a college degree appears to erase advantages of origins in the competition for socioeconomic success, at least when success is measured as class position. Unexpectedly, the intergenerational association appears to regain strength among advanced-degree holders.

    So a college degree benefits anyone who is able to finish it. The real problem I see in the system is that colleges/universities are not especially good at helping disadvantaged people complete their degrees. This problem is amplified by the blood-sucking for-profit colleges that prey on people of lower incomes and talk them into acquiring loan debt that they have a low likelihood of repaying. Too many of these students drop out without having the means to repay this debt. So if there is going to be reform, I think it should be done with the intent to help people finish their degrees with as little debt as possible. If this means heavily regulating for-profit colleges, then so be it.

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    brayden king

    November 28, 2011 at 7:03 pm

  9. Seems to me that this discussion is still confounding three separate questions:
    (1) collective rationality: is society better off investing collective resources in subsidizing college for more people? College itself does not create jobs, and increasing the proportion of the population who are college educated may just have the effect of ramping up the competition for scarce jobs. Contrary to this is Omar’s argument that some sectors that require college training have needs for more workers, which would argue for social investments in the areas where there are more job needs.
    (2) individual rationality: are individuals better off completing college than not? This could be thought of as a primitive mixed-motive game, in which individuals who complete college are better off than those who do not, regardless of the strategy of the environmental “other”. That is, regardless of whether the aggregate other is completing college at a higher or lower rate, the individual’s payoff is always higher with a degree than without it.
    (3) individual cost-benefit tradeoffs: is the individual cost of education (present + long-term commitment to make payments on non-bankruptable student loans) worth it in terms of the expected value of lifetime earnings with the years of education obtained versus the expected value of lifetime earnings without spending the money on college. This is a more complex problem than folks have discussed so far in this thread because it isn’t just a matter of comparing starting salaries (where non-college jobs often have higher starting salaries than college jobs) but lifetime trajectories (where college jobs show earnings increases across careers while non-college jobs tend to have stagnant earnings trajectories). My brother the UPS driver (who, as it happens, has a college degree and ended up in UPS sort of accidentally) made a lot more money than I (the assistant professor with a PhD) made in the late 1970s and early 1980s but our positions reversed substantially across our lives, as his salary barely kept pace with the cost of living, while mine increased in real dollars as I got promoted.

    As I said earlier, if the pool of available jobs is fixed, education cannot solve inequality problems, it just ramps up the competition. The social question is about macro economics and job creation and the effect of the level and type of education in the populace on the development of different kinds of businesses. The individual question is totally different.

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    olderwoman

    November 29, 2011 at 1:07 am

  10. PS in point (3) above I forgot to include the probability of GETTNG one of the good jobs with a good earnings trajectory, which (per #2) goes down the more other people choose to go to college and enter the competition.

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    olderwoman

    November 29, 2011 at 1:08 am

  11. Initial tracking in the US public school system occurs fairly early in the process, around the second to the fourth grade in many states. This may well predict one’s educational outcome (other life outcomes as well) since students are taught and expected differently. When students pop up in college, what we observe is a huge amount of variation that has been accumulated over a ten-year period or so. But then which factors predict getting into different initial tracks? I am not sure how much IQ plays a role, but certainly the kind of activities describe in Unequal Childhood has a huge impact, and probably constantly interacts with IQ (which can change over time, at least the kind of IQ that has been tested about) as second to fourth grade are very important formative years. This is probably unfalsifiable since it is almost impossible to parcel out IQ from early child education.

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    John

    November 29, 2011 at 4:03 am

  12. Don’t we have a quite stratified higher ed system (ivy league, private, public, community) already, and hasn’t running university in the US been relegated to running any other business? Professors are very much like customer service representatives to students (hurray to online teaching). When universities crumble, our presidents jump to another institution just like CEO’s in big corporations.

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    John

    November 29, 2011 at 4:34 am

  13. In a recent issue of the New Yorker, James Suriowiecki makes some good points (http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financial/2011/11/21/111121ta_talk_surowiecki). He argues that the college wage premium is at an all-time high, and that those without college degrees are struggling much more during the recession than those with degrees.

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    bedhaya

    November 29, 2011 at 5:15 pm

  14. What about democracy? If we try to maintain a system in which every individual can affect political decisions, don’t we all have a stake in an educated citizenry? You’re welcome to argue that civic education and basic math should be covered in K-12 education, but we know that most Americans aren’t getting it. I’ve taught introduction to American government many times, at both elite and mass institutions. Most students learned, for example, that the entire House of Representatives was up for election every two years. They should have gotten this in high school–or middle school–or grammar school–but they didn’t. Our political debate doesn’t suffer from over-education.

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    David S. Meyer

    November 29, 2011 at 5:58 pm

  15. […] college fundamentalism vs. college realism « orgtheory.net […]

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  16. David Meyer: Yes! This is an issue of the intrinsic social value of education. I would consider the value of a more-educated citizenry to be part of what I counted as issue #1: should society invest more in higher education. Then the empirical & analytic question is how much and what kind of education meets this social goal of providing the underpinnings of democracy. This is entirely a collective and social question. All of the logic about the value of education for this purpose implies that the cost should be shared socially and not imposed on the individual students who may or may not be able to afford a proportional share of the system cost. For this dimension,people’s subsequent salaries are irrelevant. BUT the level of education needed to participate as a full citizen should also be free and compulsory. That is, it should be part of public education, and not part of the debate about the value of an education the student pays for.

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    olderwoman

    November 29, 2011 at 9:25 pm

  17. @David S. Meyer: I think that Fabio has made it clear that he views universities as glorified vocational-technical schools. This is kind of sad, I suppose, but it is probably a waste of time engaging those who combine this view with a belief that there is “too much college.” As Omar points out above, when we evaluate the “returns to education” _on the terms dictated by the “too much college” gang_, the argument immediately collapses. This suggests to me that the position being advanced is driven by the sort of deep commitments that are unlikely to be altered by discussion in the comments section of a blog! In short, if you can’t convince these people that “college pays” in even the most straightforward, economistic sense, you’ll never convince them that the observed “returns to education” are merely a nice, second-order effect of the fact that higher education “pays” in all sorts of ways that, given their truncated view of the university, they have never imagined.

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    Steve

    November 29, 2011 at 11:17 pm

  18. Steve: You and I both support David Meyer’s emphasis on an educated citizenry but turning that to an attack on Fabio seems to miss the point I tried to make that the social value of education (which should be shared socially and collectively) is a very different question from whether individual people should be encouraged to pay a lot (or absorb a lot of debt) for college.

    I also share your value about the intrinsic value of education. But again I think it is important to distinguish whether you/I/we are saying that free college education should be provided to everyone because it is a social good, or whether the argument is that the intrinsic value of education is such that people should pay individually for it. Because if it is the latter, then education is being treated as a luxury good and people who have limited means might well decide they cannot afford it. People of modest means often do have to consider the cost-benefit tradeoffs of their own personal investments in college educations.

    My concern is that the individual cost-benefit problem is a competitive spiral. People of modest means try to get college education to improve their outcomes, and the strategy often works because it does, but in the process, the whole game is racheted up and it gets more and more expensive to achieve a credential that guarantees someone a decent living.

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    olderwoman

    November 30, 2011 at 12:12 am

  19. Hi, Steve: A quick note. I do not believe that universities should be vocational. However, given the high cost of college, I think it is sensible to ask if the cost of college is justified in terms of employment outcomes.

    Also, as I have argued in previous posts, the available evidence shows that an overwhelming majority of students treat college as a vocational experience and they expect colleges to help them find jobs. At the very least, we owe them an honest answer to the question of whether college is the best or most appropriate way to help people with jobs. In later posts, I’ll try to argue that the answer is “college is helpful for some people, but not everyone.”

    To David Meyer and o.w.: I agree whole heartedly that we need informed citizens. However, there are many ways to create informed citizens. Why college? Why are schools and colleges saddled with the jobs of education, job creation, employment service, sport complex, and democracy machine? Are colleges really the optimal way to satisfy all these needs?

    My view is that higher education is really good at the creation and storage of knowledge. Our record of knowledge creation is amazing. That is not a vocational or economic claim, but I think it justifies our support from the general public. The problem, as o.w., pointed out is that while college attendance may be rational for individuals, it may be massively inefficient from a collective view point.

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    fabiorojas

    November 30, 2011 at 1:05 am

  20. @omar:

    Obviously, people are talking about average effects. But still,.y=mx+b model is a college fundamentalist view. It basically says, “there’s a correlation and that’s enough to justify a broad policy of more college for more people.”

    I’ll get to this next week, but I think there are sub-populations where college might be a negative effect. Mainly, there is a large chunk of the population that attends college but does not complete due to behavioral factors (not lack of funds).

    In other words, y=mx+b masks important trends.

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    fabiorojas

    November 30, 2011 at 1:11 am

  21. Fabio, keep in mind, that that we all know that Y=mx+b masks important trends – the only reason this simplistic equation was brought into the field, was in order to highlight the flaws in the original blogpost.
    And there is a long way from “college is always good for everyone” to “there’s a correlation and that’s enough to justify a broad policy of more college for more people”.
    Wouldn’t it just be easier if you acknowledged that your original blog post was silly and we then could discuss evidence based issued, e.g. if you have numbers on college dropouts?

    Furthermore, “t the very least, we owe them an honest answer to the question of whether college is the best or most appropriate way to help people with jobs.” The answer to this question is very clearly made in previous comments, based on empirical studies.

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    Anonymous

    November 30, 2011 at 7:42 am

  22. Fabio, I’m sorry but I just don’t see how as a social scientist you can talk about anything but average effects.* I think the basic problem here, is that you are not distinguishing clearly between your role as some sort of pundit providing some sort of weakly informed opinion (like David Brooks or something), and your role as a social scientist in which whatever you say must be subject to both the canons of logic and more importantly, to the strictures of actual evidence. In that sense claims like “college benefits some people but not all” are literally vacuous. They carry no information because they are tautologies (they are necessarily true). But on the whole, it simply cannot possibly be that you can base an anti-college argument on such flimsy foundations. What we need to see is evidence. Citations to actual studies, not speculation.

    For instance, above you write as if the statement “college gets you jobs” was some sort of wild speculation. It is not! There are literally hundreds of studies that show that (on average) college gets you jobs (on average). So when undergrads go to college expecting jobs that’s exactly what they get (on average), even those English and Liberal Arts majors are (on average) more likely to be employed than not (the fact that (on average) science and tech majors are even more likely to be employed than the LA majors is irrelevant, since here we are just talking about relative differences across two generally positive effects). It would strain all (statistical) reason if you were to offer as a counter-argument to this fact the claim that “still there are some college graduates who don’t get jobs.” This counter-argument could only be offered by somebody who fails to understand the basics of social science claims based on quantitative data. I mean, if this is what you are claiming then my only theory is (given the fact that I know that you know better) is that there is some sort of irrational thing happening here that’s preventing you from drawing the obviously sound conclusion.

    Still, it is clear from these exchanges that you haven’t thought through what you mean by “too much” and you are thus confusing normative and positive senses of this statement. If you have a normative ax to grind, then that’s your hangup; I have no interest in it. So let’s consider positive senses of this statement. In the macro-economic sense, “too much college” has a straightforward interpretation: there is too much college if the supply of graduates outstrips demand. If this was true, then one version of your argument would be sound. Unfortunately this is spectacularly not true, as has been pointed out like a hundred times already. Consider the other (individual-level) version of the argument. “Too much college” could mean that the population is somehow “over-educated” given (functional?) needs for education broadly defined. As other people have pointed out, it is clear that in many respects, the American population is actually under-educated (and in the case of African Americans and Hispanics the problem is of course much worse) and that a more educated public would produce all sorts of positive externalities for everyone and everything. So you are really on thin ice if you wanted to build a “too much” case from this. Consider the comparative evidence: the more educated societies in the world (pick your favorite Scandinavian country), are also the healthiest, with the longest expected life-span, the best functioning institutions, etc. That’s why the Human Development Index people stopped looking at GDP and began looking at schooling. Is there “too much” college in Norway? Nope.

    Finally, I want to put a moratorium on talk about “effects” without specifying effects on what. So from now on, when you say (as you say above) “college has negative effects” I need you to complete the sentence. Effects on…(income? life-time debt? self-esteem?). It strikes me that the flimsiest part of your argument is simply your reluctance to pick something (anything!) as your criterion. When econometricians talk about the “benefits” of or “returns to” college, they have a criterion in mind (usually earnings or sometimes employment). My argument has been broader, simply because it is such an overwhelming fact that there are very few outcomes (that are good) for which social science data does not show college having a positive effect (all sorts of civic and religious participation, voting, arts participation, volunteering, you name it). So if you want to paint college in a negative light, you have to pick an outcome and produce evidence that college has a negative effect on it (if the outcome is positive) or vice versa if the outcome is a “baddie.”

    * I mean *all* effects are average effects. Every single policy recommendation that has been made by an econometrician, or a demographer or a biostatistician is based on average effects. “Lack of exercise leads to diabetes,” “growing up in poverty leads to teenage pregnancy” and yes, “schooling leads to better life outcomes.” So if you say, “there’s too much fat in American’s diets” that’s average effects. If you say that “Americans don’t get enough exercise.” That’s average effects. If you say that “the stigma of incarceration disproportionately hurts African-American men on the job market” that’s average effects. If you say that “women make less money than men.” That’s average effects, and so on ad infinitum. Note that it would be silly to respond to this by saying that there are “some” women who make more money than men, or that there are “some” people who eat a lot of fat but don’t get sick, etc.

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    Omar

    November 30, 2011 at 12:00 pm

  23. @olderwoman: I am not attacking Fabio, nor – it would appear from the above – does Fabio feel he’s been attacked. I follow these “too much college” arguments with interest (i.e., I do empirical research in this area). It seems to me that such arguments are driven by more than the data on returns to education, so I think it unproductive to argue about this. In other words, I’d encourage Fabio to get to the point.

    Generally, I discern four ideas/moves underlying “too much college.” For some, there is a bit of “pulling up the ladder behind you” at work. For others, it seems to be a general resentment of the academy as a community of expertise or, indeed, of the idea of expertise itself. For still others, it seems to be the result of a particular type of academic self-loathing, a kind of “impostor syndrome” run amok. Finally, there are those who believe that “college isn’t for everyone.” My guess is that Fabio falls into the last camp. If so, I agree, but note that the idea that everyone does not have the intellectual ability to succeed in college has little to do with the question of the returns to higher education. Note also that, yes, many will fail, attrition will be high, and so on, but that is exactly what one would expect to observe if “college isn’t for everyone.” I do believe that the shifting of costs to students and their families is a very serious problem in America, but this is a different question than that of “too much college.”

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    Steve

    November 30, 2011 at 5:10 pm

  24. […] orgtheory already has a system for this type of peer review — readers and co-bloggers who aren’t afraid to challenge posts in the comments – but an Internet-wide, open peer-review overlay of the Internet is […]

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