orgtheory.net

the divergent paths of sociology and political science

Fabio

Here’s a question that came up the other day in discussion with a colleague: Up until 1975 or so, political science and sociology were in similar boats, but only political science adopted mathematical modeling as a core research method in the last 30 years. Sure, there are pockets of mathematical soc folks, but now major chunks of political science have been recast in formal models, like theories of political conflict and competition (game theory), policy formation (Euclidean policy space models), legislative politics (more game theory), etc.  And all serious researchers are expected to know these theories. There has been no equivalent transformation of sociology. Why the divergence? Here are some are easily falsified hypotheses:

  • Sociology is more comparative/institutional. Wrong – poli sci has deep comparative and institutional traditions.
  • Sociology has ethnographers and historical types. Wrong – so does poli sci, especially non-Americanists,  but I’ll grant that we have a bigger group of them.
  • Sociology is dominated by progressives who hate math. Wrong – leftists in poli sci (and econ) just recast their theories in the new formalism (see Romer and the analytical Marxists for examples).
  • Sociology doesn’t have research problems that are easily recast in math. Wrong – soc has demography, mobility processes, etc.
  • Sociology studies dynamics, while econ inspired formalism studies equilibrium states. Wrong – there is a lot of dynamic sociological models, such as stochastic process models, vacancy chains models, differential equations, etc.
  • Sociology didn’t have the data bases or statistical technique that was comparable to poli sci. Wrong – Up until the 1970s, sociologists were often ahead of poli sci folks on surveys like the Wisconsin studies or the GSS. Soc folks were also ahead on path models and multiple regression when poli sci folks were still wowed by punch cards.
  • Sociology gets the math deprived students. Wrong – True to an extent, but poli sci before the 1980s was never known as math central. They were just as math deprived as we are.

There are a few other hypotheses I can’t immediately rule out: people who like math dislike the topics sociologists study (crime, family, etc.), which might have been true pre-Becker, but that begs the question; math intense people have tried to infiltrate sociology through grad admissions, faculty hiring, or publication, but have been rejected; unobserved structural inertia of the field that preserves the research styles of the post-Parsons era. Any other guesses?

Written by fabiorojas

August 1, 2007 at 2:42 am

23 Responses

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  1. Hmm … How about, Political Science found it easier not to fight boundary battles with history and some other humanities subjects.

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    Kieran

    August 1, 2007 at 3:11 am

  2. As far as I can tell, in the 1970s, sociology was clearly ahead of political science in quantitative methods. It wasn’t even close.

    As for why political science and not sociology, I’m not sure whether the much greater feminization of sociology is a cause or effect.

    A different theory, of the sort sociologists would eschew, is that game theory happens to work really well for a broad class of political phenomena, and sociologists have more of a capacity to substantively meander away from a phenomenon when it looks like economists are going to come in and take over.

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    Jeremy

    August 1, 2007 at 3:37 am

  3. To add to Jeremy’s comment, game theory can work particularly well within international relations. From what I remember of my polisci degree, I encountered more formal modeling in IR than domestic politics. It may be easier to try and build a formal model to explain the behavior of a hostile nation than to try and gain access for most qualitative methods. On the other hand, theories of international relations that can only describe how friendly nations behave are not as interesting. International relations scholars may have have borrowed formal modeling techniques from economics as the best way to answer critical questions in their field, and then these techniques have spread to other areas of the field.

    This does not explain why sociology has not turned towards formal methods. However, part of the reason why I moved from polisci to sociology was because I got sick of certain assumptions in the models I was being taught in polisci classes. I felt that sociological methods – both quantitative and qualitative – could be more useful. Maybe there’s something to be said for the theory that some sociologists want to differentiate themselves (mainly from economists) by not including formal modeling?

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    Noah

    August 1, 2007 at 7:44 am

  4. I think Kieran and Noah may be on to the same theory (boundaries and assumptions) in the sense that building quantitative models necessarily demands limiting the scope of your questions (doesn’t it?). Perhaps polisci folks are simply more willing to do this than sociology folks.

    I’m a non-academic, so I could be waaaaay off base, but as a geography undergrad back in the early ’90’s I was both enthralled and frustrated by the broad scope any project could take. I focused on human geography (which in some ways is no focus at all) and in any one class we could be discussing the history, sociology, cultural anthropology, geology, climatology, or economy of an issue.

    In some respects I enjoyed shedding whatever possible and boiling an issue down to its key points (and perhaps quantifying them) but more often I enjoyed using a narrative approach to try to tie ALL of those things together because frankly, you lose much of the complexity of a situation by shedding some of the more qualitative type issues.

    Some may argue that by trying to include everything, you really aren’t studying anything since you can’t apply that learning to any other situation or groups of situations. I, however, always saw value in developing the mental processes to see big pictures as they are: multi-tiered, multi-functional situations that are, in fact, not exactly like any other situation one has seen before.

    On the other hand, perhaps that is simply rationalization due to my grades in statistics.

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    UncleSharky

    August 1, 2007 at 4:17 pm

  5. How about: Policy schools (where sociologists tend to be scarce) as fora for trans-genetic, cross-disciplinary mixing? In other words, [perjhaps sociologists haven’t jumped on the game theory bandwagon because they aren’t exposed to it on a work-a-day basis?

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    nash

    August 1, 2007 at 8:20 pm

  6. A quirk of path dependence? In poli sci, the separately-federally-funded centers that tended to distract people from being core members of the department were on the qualitative side– area studies centers that emphasized language training. This tended to leave the core departments relatively more dominated by quant folks. In soc, the equivalent was (maybe?) the demography centers, which tended to isolate one of the most quant contingents in soc and left the core departments relatively qualitative…?

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    Jacob T. Levy

    August 1, 2007 at 9:11 pm

  7. jacob,

    i think “quantitative” conflates math and statistics. for instance, i have an adequate working knowledge of statistics but know very little about math and i think in this respect i’m typical of quantitative sociologists. likewise, most of the articles in ASR or AJS show some kind of regression table but the words “Nash equilibrium” are pretty rare.

    so the question then is why don’t math-focused sociologists go into formal modeling. i think there are two answers, selection and treatment. selection is that since Gary Becker it’s been possible to address sociological issues within econ departments, so students who want to, for instance, apply game theory to the family can do so in econ where they’re going to find much more support for formal modeling. On the treatment side, the study of social networks soaks up the remaining sociologists who like math.

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    Gabriel

    August 1, 2007 at 11:36 pm

  8. Hmm…

    How about (1) taking a look at the postmodern developments (i.e., the “intepretative” or “verstehen” turn) in social thought? These developments have challenged formalist and positivist thought across the social sciences. Also, this focus on “intepretation” and “understanding” called for a fundamental rethinking of research questions that are to be asked, and what are to be judged as acceptable answers.

    Moreover, as I believe, the dearth of non-formal models in sociology is located in (2) sociologists not allowing the results of formal models to speak for themselves (e.g., can anyone truly question the insight gained from Gary Becker, 1957?); instead, the profession seemingly continues to be stalled on concentrating on the merits and/or demerits of the rational framework.

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    Brian Pitt

    August 2, 2007 at 12:03 am

  9. likewise, most of the articles in ASR or AJS show some kind of regression table but the words “Nash equilibrium” are pretty rare.

    This is very true. That there isn’t a lot of formal modeling in sociology doesn’t mean that our discipline is dominated by qualitative methods. Most top graduate programs require extensive training in regression methods, but very few have a similar requirement for training in ethnographic methods (this is usually an elective). You might say that regression is a dominant form of analysis in our discipline.

    I think the dearth of formal modeling has more to do with the prevalence of theories that emphasize structural and cultural context as an explanation for individual and group behavior. Game theory, while it has certainly advanced greatly, is still limited in the kinds of context that it can model, and even if you do include constraints in models you may have to make assumptions about rationality or equilibrium states that sociologists might consider unrealistic. Sociologists are also obsessed with data. Our roots in demographic analysis and the Chicago school have had a lasting effect on our pursuit of empirical evidence that requires data gathering and hypothesis testing. Formal modeling and simulations are interesting, but they tend to get relegated to the theory-building bin.

    At some point I need to write a post about the really good mathematical sociology that has been done. Some of it has been foundational to our understanding of organizations.

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    brayden

    August 2, 2007 at 3:00 am

  10. “the dearth of non-formal models in sociology is located in (2) sociologists not allowing the results of formal models to speak for themselves (e.g., can anyone truly question the insight gained from Gary Becker, 1957?)”

    Is there a typo here? What exactly does “speak for themselves” mean? On GB, I’ll question away. I’m no doubt in the minority around here, but I’ve always thought that right-time-at-right-place-i-ness explains more of the GB story than it does for most.

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    bainbridge

    August 2, 2007 at 12:22 pm

  11. Hey Bainbridge,

    When Becker (1957) used rationalist tools in order to examine subjects that were considered the “domain of sociology,” (e.g., discrimmination, crime, etc.) his work was met with skepticism by much of the (sociology) profession. (And by the way, it should have been!) However, Becker put forward something that mainstream sociology did not – a theory grounded in the rational behavior of individuals. That is, according to Becker, discrimmination was a nonpecuniary “taste” that generated financial cost within market interaction. Now, one can carp about the “simplicity” and “lack of reality” in Becker, but one cannot deny that Becker’s study was not only theoretical coherent, it appeared consistent with income data. And as Brayden notes, sociologists love data.

    Finally, I do not think that you are in the minority about formal modelling. However, if sociology wishes to be taken seriously, it must promulgate coherent theories that blend rational processes, our influences from friends and family, our ethnicities, our situations within our communities, and our spiritual/moral influences.

    Answer: The formal modelling of Weberian/Misean purposive action! If you doubt the cogence of this approach, look at the works of B. Caplan (Rational Irrationality) and Donald Kinder (Sociotropic Voting).

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    Brian Pitt

    August 2, 2007 at 2:29 pm

  12. I don’t think I’m in the minority about formal modeling, but in the minority in my assessment of GB. I was reacting to the claim that one couldn’t “question the insight gained” in his work in discrimination. I do question it. I literally don’t see anything in it that represented a radical departure from what any number of people were saying about discrimination in the 40s and 50s. I’ll grant that it *was* presented in a different language, but, in the end, I see him making a far larger contribution to economics than to sociology. He gave economists a language with which to talk about such things. Sociologists already had one…and, no, I’m not saying that the sociologists language is to be preferred.

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    bainbridge

    August 2, 2007 at 4:16 pm

  13. Fabio —

    The title of your post should mention that you are talking about American, and probably North-American poli-sci and sociology, since none of its observations are true on the European continent (at least they are wrong for Britain, France, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium, and the Netherlands as far as I can tell).

    It may be useful to look elsewhere to understand what is happening. My hypothesis is that poli-sci people in the US take up policy jobs that aim at influencing the statu quo. Like economists and jurists, they needed a specific capital of expertise to assert and decide in this field. Formal models may have a role there, consciously or not.

    In France, most poli-sci scholars have absolutely no influence in public decision (which is dominated by the elites described in Suleiman) and have sticked with historical methods.

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    Fr.

    August 4, 2007 at 8:45 pm

  14. […] The divergent paths of sociology and political science On Org Theory. The missing word in the title is: American. Or North-American. None of the observations are valid in Europe. (tags: political-science) […]

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  15. […] Comments links for 2007-08-05 « Personal Link Sampler on the divergent paths of sociology and political scienceShaun on the ultimate credit cardin memoriam – art davis « orgtheory.net on in memory of […]

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  16. If anyone can build a mathematical for Giddens’ Structuration or Habermas’ commumcative Aciton they should win some sort of an award.

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    Peter Nieckarz

    August 6, 2007 at 3:20 pm

  17. Peter has a good point. Many sociological theories are simply not amenable to formalization. That was implied by the Peli et al. 1994 article in ASR.

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    brayden

    August 6, 2007 at 6:45 pm

  18. Sociology has a reputation as an intellectually “light” discipline, and intellectually light disciplines don’t attract number-crunchers.

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    Anonymous.

    August 8, 2007 at 4:17 am

  19. I know this is a dead thread, but hey, this blog has a “recent comments” feature. Anyway, this book review argues that poli sci’s embrace of RCT was a huge mistake and it should go back to induction (as does sociology)

    http://www.thenewatlantis.com/archive/16/crawford.htm

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    Gabriel

    August 31, 2007 at 5:44 pm

  20. Never a dead thread Gabriel.

    I agree with the nub of the article; i.e., the avoidance of strict rationality (outside the market). But, human scientists must allow for a degree of rationality in their investigations (or purposive action).

    If not, aren’t we simply oversocialized automatons; marionettes of our history?

    Additionally, if human science reverts to induction, and abandons deductive approaches, how will social researchers choose between the “important” and the “not-so-important?”

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    Brian Pitt

    August 31, 2007 at 11:00 pm

  21. […] orgtheory discussion of poli sci & econ, see “who invited the economists?” Part 1 and […]

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  22. […] was political science so susceptible to economic theory? We’ve discussed this a bit before (part 1 and part 2), but I wanted to add a new hypothesis: economists increased their impact by changing […]

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  23. Hi, I realize no one has commented on this for awhile….but I’m a high school senior; so if I want to have a career with a non-profit or other community/social service organization but still be able to make over $75,000+ a year with good benefits should i major in Urban Studies, Sociology, or Political Science? I also really hate math.
    I understand that $75,000 would be pretty high salary in this field however I plan to go to law school and enter into J.D./M.A or Ph.D program.
    I will be going to Northwestern, BU, or Pitt(honors college) for my undergraduate degree.
    For law school I’ll be going to Harvard, NYU, Columbia, Penn, Northwestern, Stanford, University of Chicago, Georgetown, UC Berkeley, Boston College or Duke.
    I was also thinking of minoring in Public Relations or Marketing….is that a good idea?
    * Please don’t say I’m pretentious…I know I’m not even a freshmen in college, and I have named all of these great law schools I say I will be attending but unless I change my mind, or my circumstances change that is what will happen. I’m a National Merit Scholar with 4 AP’s and the rest honors classes all four years except math. I have a 4.1 weighted GPA at an academically demanding private school, and I’m a minority with neither of my parents having going to college. So I don’t mean to sound like an annoying boastful teenager, I’m just aware of my abilities, and have confidence that I will get into one of those law schools.
    Thanks for any advice. I really appreciate it.
    Hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving!

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    Nikki

    November 30, 2010 at 6:10 am


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